Teenage First Cycle Help (Patellar Tracking Disorder + Deca)

[Peaky-Mike]

Hey guys, this is my first post so please forgive any issues

Anyways, general info

Age: 18
Height: 190cm
Weight: 80kg (176lb)
Lifting Experience: Fairly seriously since I was 15 (3 years)
Cycles: 0

My goal is probably different to most on this forum but I believe these questions will still be relevant, correct me if im wrong

I've had Patellar Tracking Disorder since I was about 12, which is basically a condition that is easily aggravated with flexion at the knee, especially under load, due to improper 'tracking' or movement of the patellar (knee cap) as the leg bends/straightens. Its been essentially un-diagnosed until a little more than a year ago. It causes inflammation and deadening of the contraction (due to pain feedback loop) in my vastus medialis (tear drop part of quad). So i have one normal, big, well developed leg and one small, deformed looking leg. I trained my legs hard the whole time I've been lifting up untill when it was diagnosed by my Physio. I've been seeing the Physiotherapist since. What followed was a year (up untill now) of no leg training, stretching, needling, massage and all your regular rehaby kind of stuff. Anyways, its done nothing and the inflammation is still an issue. I have recently begun a light resistance training rehab program to strengthen the adducters and inner musculature of my leg and more intense stretching of the hypertensive glute and vastus lateralis on the outside of my leg, as the kneecap is being pulled out, in an attempt to correct it.

Essentially, my Physio told me if we were able to kill the inflammation, help the pain, get the kneecap where it needs to be and keep it there whilst rapidly building up the surrounding connective tissue and strengthening the weaker surrounding muscles to hold it in place, the problem would be solved, as I'd have a regularly functioning quad musculature, holding my correctly placed knee in place. Something that now seems impossible, after a year of unsuccessful rehab.

Naturally I suggested a short cycle of Nandrolone Decanoate and Sustanon, which after a brief discussion I fully convinced him of I plan on running this solely to strengthen the weak muscles (Adducters etc), help with anti-inflammatory and to put some mass on the Vastus Medialis to hold the knee in place securely. Once this has all been achieved the cycle will end, synovial fluid cushioning will decrease to normal and test will do the same in the following months and I'll be left with a functional knee, although obviously not as strong as when I was on cycle.

The cycle:

Weeks 1-6 -
Deca-Durabolin: 200mg (Once a week injection)
Sustanon 250: 500mg (Once a week injection)

Week 7-8 -
Deca-Durabolin: 100mg (Once a week injection)
Sustanon 250: 250mg (Once a week injection)


Arimadex (Anastrozole): 0.5mg a day ? (Or as needed)



Thats the rough idea, my questions are:

What would be needed with PCT, I've read up heaps on it but im not sure due to my age etc. I've heard 500iu of HCG during the last 10 days of the cycle, before PCT helps a lot, then HCG throughout PCT with Nolvadex? Any PCT help would be awesome

How good is Deca with inflammation? Is this cycle going to help the inflammation and cushion the joint enough for me to train it with less pain feedback, therefore more activation and growth?

Does running Sustanon with Deca kill Deca's "Wonder Drug" anti-inflammatory characteristics?

Is tapering down towards the end of the cycle beneficial?

Any tips would be awesome Thanks heaps in advance

[Dan C]

First of all, make sure this is what you really want for the recovery of your Patellar Tracking Disorder. Understand that the use of anabolic steroids at your age can result in permanent closure of your bone's growth plates, as well as potential permanent damage to your HPTA, leading to permanent hypogonadism that will leave you to require TRT for the rest of your life. If that is worth the accelerated recovery of your disorder, then by all means go for it, but you need to just be aware of this. You also should not use your condition as an excuse to perform an anabolic steroid cycle. I am not saying you are, but I have seen individuals who are young that possess some kind of injury or disorder who will use that as an excuse to use bodybuilding doses of anabolic steroids in a full cycle, when in reality IF they are going to use AAS to assist their recovery, they should be using therapeutic dosages. Think about whether or not you can wait a few more years (until at least 21 years of age) before attempting to use anabolic steroids to accelerate healing of your injury/disorder. At the end of the day, the decision rests with you, and its up to you to determine whether or not it is worth it after taking the risk:benefit ratio into consideration. I'm just trying to help you realize those risks and benefits, and the ratio you'll have to deal with when it comes to AAS use at your age.

With that being said, a proper PCT is of the utmost importance for you at your age. 500iu of HCG during the last 10 days of the cycle only is not enough. The best and most ideal PCT is the one laid out in the PCT article I wrote on the main Steroidal.com page, which involves the use of HCG for the first couple of weeks of PCT, whilst utilizing Aromasin (Exemestane) and Nolvadex to help recover the HPTA. After the first couple of weeks of HCG administration is done, Aromasin can be halted along with it, and continue administering Nolvadex for the remaining 4 weeks or so of your PCT to ensure a full recovery. Make sure you have bloodwork done 8 weeks post-PCT in order to make sure your HPTA is fully functioning again. If you have the approval of the physician who is overseeing the treatment of your condition, you should have no issues requesting bloodwork from him in order to monitor yourself during the cycle, after the cycle, and 8 weeks after PCT.

Deca is a very good compound for the purpose of inflammation reduction and connective tissue recovery. If you read our Deca-Durabolin profile, you'll see studies referenced that indicate that Nandrolone is an excellent compound that does more for the synthesis of collagen in bone and connective tissue than any other anabolic steroid. Keep in mind this is a characteristic of ALL anabolic steroids, but Nandrolone is very special in this regard, it does it more so than most other compounds.

Sustanon should not interfere with Nandrolone's healing capabilities on connective tissue, and in fact should work in concert with it.

Tapering down is unnecessary and will only prolong the recovery of your HPTA. When your cycle is done, you do your last administration and that is IT, you wait the appropriate period for the hormones to clear from your body and then begin PCT. Tapering is an outdated practice and will only delay the recovery of your endocrine system.

[warmouth]

I am just going to follow this one from a distance for a while and see if I cant learn a thing or 2 myself.

[Admin]

I cycled at 19 and regretted it. Got terrible acne but I recovered quickly post cycle in regards to my HPTA.

However, I do NOT suggest you cycle at your age and stats. You can damage yourself a fair amount IMO, its not worth the risk, I think I was fortunate.

If you do decide to cycle, stay away from Deca, its a very inhibitive anabolic steroid. I'd opt for a Anavar cycle, or Turinabol, not even Testosterone.

[Peaky-Mike]

Thanks Dan, awesome info, I'll read up on your article Im not making excuses for a cycle, any pointers on what would be a more appropriate dose for me?

I realise the risks involved but if my PCT is done properly and im getting bloodwork done at appropriate times, on my first cycle I've got a pretty solid chance of making a full recovery yeah? Im planning on being under the supervision of my GP (physician) and Physiotherapist the whole time as well.

Dan, if the anti-inflamatory characteristics are across all anabolics is there something more mild I could try first? I assumed Deca would be best from what I read, but if i can treat this without such an aggressive HPTA suppresor that would be best

Should I cycle the sustanon on its own? Maybe 500mg a week for 8 weeks and see how it goes? Gives me and my doctor an oppurtunity to get a feel for me and how Im gonna react to treatment

Will my risk be much lower by dropping the Deca?

[BEAR]

Dan you're AWESOME!! We are nothing short of blessed to have you as the lead paver on our informational highway!! Keep up the good work brother.....

Peaky-Mike, welcome to the forum, glad to have you. Seems as though you've been dealt a pretty crapy hand champ......but it pleases me to see you being proactive about it, I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor big guy, keep your head up, you're in good hands.

[Dan C]

Thanks, BEAR, I appreciate it! Always here to help out any way I can.

Thanks Dan, awesome info, I'll read up on your article Im not making excuses for a cycle, any pointers on what would be a more appropriate dose for me?

I realise the risks involved but if my PCT is done properly and im getting bloodwork done at appropriate times, on my first cycle I've got a pretty solid chance of making a full recovery yeah? Im planning on being under the supervision of my GP (physician) and Physiotherapist the whole time as well.

Dan, if the anti-inflamatory characteristics are across all anabolics is there something more mild I could try first? I assumed Deca would be best from what I read, but if i can treat this without such an aggressive HPTA suppresor that would be best

Should I cycle the sustanon on its own? Maybe 500mg a week for 8 weeks and see how it goes? Gives me and my doctor an oppurtunity to get a feel for me and how Im gonna react to treatment

Will my risk be much lower by dropping the Deca?

Performing a proper PCT along with bloodwork to make sure everything is in check will increase your chances of everything going smoothly, but you have to realize that at your age, the use of ANY anabolic steroids (even the 'mild' ones such as Turinabol, Anavar, etc.) present a very high chance of permanent HPTA disruption. At your age, your body's endocrine system is still maturing and finalizing its development. The introduction of exogenous hormones will only serve to interrupt this process and possibly leave it to never return to normal.

Nandrolone is a very suppressive compound, and in some initial studies in the late 1960s by Roussiel-UCLAF on 19-nor compounds such as Nandrolone and Trenbolone, they were found to be approximately three times as suppressive on the HPTA than Testosterone itself. This is due in large part to their nature as Progestins, which further serve to affect the negative feedback loop in the body. BUT you need to understand that ANY and ALL anabolic steroids will suppress the HPTA. Nandrolone will just do it faster. And by faster, I mean that while the body's HPTA might 'catch on' to 100mg of Anavar after 3 or 4 days of use, the body might 'catch on' to 100mg of Nandrolone in the system after only a day or two of use. And I am not kidding about Anavar either, it is a very suppressive anabolic steroid on the HPTA. If you read the Anavar profile and go to the Anavar Side Effects section, scroll down to the HPTA suppression paragraph and you'll see a study I referenced there where the test subjects' Testosterone levels bottomed out after just 5 days on it at only 15mg (FIFTEEN milligrams) per day, which is peanuts in terms of dosage when you see what athletes and bodybuilders take. So, if you read all these claims that circulate about Anavar being 'mild on the HPTA', don't believe them. Clinical evidence demonstrates otherwise.

I think your risk is more or less the same whether you decide to use Deca, Sustanon, Anavar, or anything else. Once the body detects supraphysiological levels of exogenous hormones in the bloodstream, the hypothalamus stops sending signals to the different endocrine glands that ultimately results in the manufacture of Testosterone. The difference between certain anabolic steroids in this case is that some might initiate suppression/shutdown faster or slower than others. But at the end of the day, it happens with all of them. The concern i'm outlining here is your HPTA. With all of that being said, I guess you could think to yourself logically "well if they all exhibit shutdown/suppression, might as well go for Nandrolone anyways". Once again, if you feel the higher probability (due to your age) of the risk of HPTA disruption is worth the trade off that you'll be able to fully recover faster, then that is your decision to make. An alternative you might want to look into, perhaps, is the use of Human Growth Hormone and/or peptides, as they will not affect the HPTA. But even the use of those at your age is largely unnecessary.

I know your situation sucks and you are really looking for something to help get you back to 100% health and function, but it just so happens that at your age these options present various risks that otherwise would not really be a problem if you were several years older.

My question is: what has your physician said about your suggestion to use AAS to assist recovery?

[Dan C]

I also just want to quickly mention to you that I am by no means saying "NO, DON'T DO IT, YOU'LL RUIN YOURSELF AT YOUR AGE!" as some people might mistake me as saying. If you were a typical 18 year old kid coming in here saying that you want to do an anabolic steroid cycle to pack mass on fast because you're too lazy to train for several years naturally first, then that would definitely be my response. But that's not the case here.

What i'm saying to you is: yes, these compounds are indeed very beneficial for your condition. They are in fact designated for use in medical and clinical settings for the exact purpose you need them for. However, your case is different because of your age, which presents some additional risk that would not normally be present. If I was your physician, I would be totally open to treating you with AAS to get you 100% better, but I would first outline to you the potential risks considering your current age and the final decision would rest with you, provided I fully educated you on the matter (so that you could make an informed and educated decision). If you elect to go that route with the risks considered, i'd support your decision 100%. I'm wondering if the physician overseeing your condition has done the same thing. I'm trying to get a feel for how much your physician might know about anabolic steroids (most don't know very much about them at all, really).

[Peaky-Mike]

Thanks heaps Dan, you've given me a lot more to think about Their use was recommended by my Physiotherapist, who handles the physical treatment (eg. Massage etc) and monitoring/prescribing rehab. Hes reasonably knowledgable and did a heap of research as I did and he thought it would be an appropriate treatment but as he dosent handle prescribing the anabolics himself (physios cant), I have to go to my regular doctor to get any prescriptions, blood work etc. Ive only had one appointment regarding this with him, whereas ive been with that physio for over a year. So i need to follow it all up with my doctor some more, so I'll keep you all up to date on that

Would GH be a better approach for my age? I definately dont want to do permanant damage, but at the same time I dont want to have had a knee reconstruction before im 20 and be rendered weak as fuck haha. What would be the best approach for my age In your opinion Dan?

[warmouth]

DAN! 25 or no advice, lol. This is a really
interesting read, and a good perspective. Still learning on this one, so no reason for me to be vocal. Listen good OP, as Dan has a lot of information for you to take from this. Dont make the mistake of filtering out advice you want to hear, but take it as a whole and weigh out the risk to reward. Good luck with everything on this!

[Dan C]

Usually if the physio specialist recommends something to assist your condition, your GP shouldn't question it and shouldn't have a problem with it. After all, the physio specialist is the specialist. Look, if you are risking permanent damage to your knee and become somewhat disabled for the rest of your life, then do it. My PERSONAL choice, if I was in your position, would be to opt for the AAS therapy. I would much rather be on TRT for the rest of my life than have a permanent limp or weakness because of reconstructive surgery on the knee because it didn't heal adequately.

Your situation and others like it are some of the most difficult situations to address because it is a huuuuge grey area. It isn't as black-and-white as an 18 year old coming here to look for validation on doing a cycle because he wants to get big and buff without willing to train naturally for it until he is at an appropriate age to start using anabolic steroids. You have a condition that could really do with the assistance of anabolic steroid therapy, and even your physio specialist agrees. But that doesn't mean that the risks of using anabolic steroids at a premature age just disappear just because you have Patellar Tracking Disorder. As I've mentioned many times, you need to weigh the risk:reward ratio as warmouth put it.

Your condition actually warrants the use of AAS even more so than some other similar cases I've run into. For example, on a previous forum I was highly active on, there was an fellow around the same age (in fact, I think he was even younger) as you. I can't remember exactly, since it was a while ago now. Anyhow, this particular individual was 17 or 18 years old, and if my memory serves me correctly, he was trying to recover from severe muscular atrophy in the lower body as a result of either paralysis for a coma. I can't remember which, but it rendered him with such severe atrophy in the lower body he apparently couldn't walk, but was beginning to slowly rebuild his strength and mass via rehabilitation. He wanted to do an AAS cycle to assist in the recovery and regain the loss of mass and strength. While his condition was indeed a valid condition that could use the treatment of AAS, it was not as if he couldn't recover completely WITHOUT anabolic steroids. They would help him restore his loss quicker, but it was not as if this couldn't be achieved through rehab without the use of exogenous hormones. And to boot, he was suggesting the use of anabolic steroids at bodybuilding doses (stuff like 500mg/week of Testosterone with 50 - 100mg/day of Anavar, along with Deca I believe, etc.), never mind therapeutic doses... so I got the impression that while he had a condition that validated the use of AAS, there was something about everything he was saying that made me feel like he was using it as an excuse to jump on a cycle at a very young age. His risk:reward ratio was just too high, and someone much older in his condition could easily do with AAS therapy, but with himself being so young and the fact that what he needed to achieve could be done without AAS just did not warrant the use of it in my eyes.

Your condition differs, because your connective tissue and supportive muscle tissue around the kneecap needs to be rapidly and sufficiently strengthened otherwise you risk having the kneecap slide out of place. The result could be permanent damage to the area, and as you mentioned, reconstructive surgery that could leave you limping for life. You also said a year of rehab hasn't done anything, while the individual I just mentioned was seeing steady improvements with his rehab. He didn't have the risk of something sliding severely out of place, but you do. He didn't have a time-sensitive issue to correct, but you do. So you know what I say? Do it. If I was in your condition, with the knowledge I have, I would rather have permanent HPTA dysfunction than have a permanent gait from my kneecap slipping out of place, and having to go through the other whole ordeal of reconstructive surgery. But that's me. It's ultimately up to you because you're the one with the condition, and now you have all the knowledge you need to make a proper informed decision.

If you're going to go with it, drop the Sustanon to 250mg per week, there is no need to run 500mg per week with your condition. I would say keep the Nandrolone at 200mg/week throughout the full cycle along with 250mg/week of Sustanon. See how things go by week 6 - 8, and if you need to adjust, do so from there with consultation from your physio specialist. Do a solid PCT afterwards, and maybe you'll come out win/win with a strengthened patella and a regularly functioning HPTA.

[Admin]

Winstrol is something you could also look at as it can increase collagen synthesis.

I don't condone the use of 19-Nor's at your age, not even in your circumstances. You could try other less inhibitive compounds and use Deca Durabolan is warranted down the like.

[Dan C]

Winstrol is something you could also look at as it can increase collagen synthesis.

I don't condone the use of 19-Nor's at your age, not even in your circumstances. You could try other less inhibitive compounds and use Deca Durabolan is warranted down the like.

This is always a good option. All anabolic steroids are excellent at enhancing the rate of collagen synthesis. If for whatever reason other compounds are not accomplishing what is needed (which I really don't see happening), Deca can be attempted much later. Therapeutic doses of compounds such as Anavar, Turinabol, Winstrol, etc. should do just fine for connective tissue repair. Nandrolone isn't exclusive to these effects by any means.

[Peaky-Mike]

So am I better off cycling a less inhibitive compound with the sustanon?With the same 250mg/w Sus? What would you guys recommend? Or was what you recommended gonna be best Dan, 250mg/w Sus, 200mg/w Deca?

[Peaky-Mike]

Or am I better off looking further into GH? Im also not rushing into this as I plan to wait untill the start of 2014 to give rehab a little bit more time and really discuss everything properly