Liver support/orals advice appreciated

[DanM]

Hello all, during my research I came across quite a bit of quality info on this site so thought I would go ahead and give it a go. Everything is going along smoothly though one thing I'm having a issue with is the conflicting info I see on taking any sort of liver support with orals, this next bit I'm about to quote specfically confused me..."If you increase your liver function during a cycle while taking orals, it will have an effect of trying to cancel out the oral. You want the oral to work its full potential, the liver is basically trying to destroy it. Which is why all orals are 17 alpha-alkylated, to stop the actual steroid from being destroyed on its first pass through the liver. When the liver deals with that, it takes strain but liver function returns to normal after you stop with it"....does anybody know if their is any truth to this? I have heard this before just not quite explained in a non bro science type way. If this is true, does anybody know to what extent, I mean would it actually be noticeable? I usually just dig and dig until I'm comfortable but I can't seem to find a solid answer on this one. NAC/liv 52 are what I would run by the way if that makes any differance. Thanks for your time.

[Admin]

Hello all, during my research I came across quite a bit of quality info on this site so thought I would go ahead and give it a go. Everything is going along smoothly though one thing I'm having a issue with is the conflicting info I see on taking any sort of liver support with orals, this next bit I'm about to quote specfically confused me..."If you increase your liver function during a cycle while taking orals, it will have an effect of trying to cancel out the oral. You want the oral to work its full potential, the liver is basically trying to destroy it. Which is why all orals are 17 alpha-alkylated, to stop the actual steroid from being destroyed on its first pass through the liver. When the liver deals with that, it takes strain but liver function returns to normal after you stop with it"....does anybody know if their is any truth to this? I have heard this before just not quite explained in a non bro science type way. If this is true, does anybody know to what extent, I mean would it actually be noticeable? I usually just dig and dig until I'm comfortable but I can't seem to find a solid answer on this one. NAC/liv 52 are what I would run by the way if that makes any differance. Thanks for your time.

Welcome to Steroidal.com!

Great question by the way.

No, I've never seen truth in this and if it did the difference would be minimal IMO.

You can wither run your liver support on cycle, or use it after the oral finish as a kind of detoxifying protocol.

[Dan C]

Welcome to Steroidal.com.

I don't know where you got that snippet of information from, but it is absolutely WRONG. If you read through any textbook on hepatic (liver) physiology, you will see that what you mentioned just is not true. Increasing liver function WILL NOT "cancel out the oral". That is quite plainly and simply the most absurd thing about hepatic function that I have ever heard. Seriously. Furthermore, the information you provided were not provided with any references to support the claims either, so it really holds no ground to begin with. Furthermore, INCREASING the hepatic efficiency results in a higher percentage of the oral anabolic steroids reaching the bloodstream, if anything.

The fact is that C17-alpha alkylation serves merely to remove one metabolic pathway that originally STOPS the anabolic steroid from proceeding into the bloodstream. Increasing hepatic function by taking liver support compounds has no effect on this at all. More specifically, there is an enzyme in the liver that detects anabolic steroids and metabolizes it into an inactive form, which is passed out through the renal system (the kidneys), into the urine, and into your toilet, and therefore very little of it reaches the bloodstream. C17-alpha alkylation alters the anabolic steroid as such that the enzyme responsible for this DOES NOT RECOGNIZE THE HORMONE AS A PROPER SUBSTRATE. The anabolic steroid will continue to make that pass through the liver as long as it is C17-alpha alkylated.

In layman's terms as a good analogy, I am going to say this is the equivalent of you going to work every day. In order to get into the office where you work, you have a keycard that must be scanned that allows you to enter. You scan your card, the door recognizes your card and you enter. Lets say we get a hacker or someone who alters the magnetic strip/barcode on your card that the door scanner now does not recognize. You go to work one day, scan your card, and the door does not open and does not let you in. You now need to find another way into the office. The modification to your access card is the equivalent of modifying Testosterone with C17-alpha alkylation. The hormone now gets by into the bloodstream by going through a new pathway, which unfortunately at the same time results in an increase in hepatocyte (liver cell) toxicity, and that is the trade-off we make when we C17-AA a compound.

Make sense? Be careful of what you read on the internet. There are too many forums, websites, and people that will spew out unscientific bullshit, which is often conjecture, anecdote, and/or broscience. It's just a bunch of idiots trying to sound smart when they're really just talking out of their ass. It's guys like me who are actually formally trained and educated in these matters that have developed a sense of smell for this particular bullshit (which laymen have not developed) and call these idiots out.

Please read my article on liver support and C-17 oral anabolic steroids here: http://forums.steroidal.com/educatio....html#post5965, you will find a intense wealth of information there. Let me know if that article/thread answers all of your questions.

[Admin]

Welcome to Steroidal.com.

I don't know where you got that snippet of information from, but it is absolutely WRONG. If you read through any textbook on hepatic (liver) physiology, you will see that what you mentioned just is not true. Increasing liver function WILL NOT "cancel out the oral". That is quite plainly and simply the most absurd thing about hepatic function that I have ever heard. Seriously. Furthermore, the information you provided were not provided with any references to support the claims either, so it really holds no ground to begin with. Furthermore, INCREASING the hepatic efficiency results in a higher percentage of the oral anabolic steroids reaching the bloodstream, if anything.

The fact is that C17-alpha alkylation serves merely to remove one metabolic pathway that originally STOPS the anabolic steroid from proceeding into the bloodstream. Increasing hepatic function by taking liver support compounds has no effect on this at all. More specifically, there is an enzyme in the liver that detects anabolic steroids and metabolizes it into an inactive form, which is passed out through the renal system (the kidneys), into the urine, and into your toilet, and therefore very little of it reaches the bloodstream. C17-alpha alkylation alters the anabolic steroid as such that the enzyme responsible for this DOES NOT RECOGNIZE THE HORMONE AS A PROPER SUBSTRATE. The anabolic steroid will continue to make that pass through the liver as long as it is C17-alpha alkylated.

In layman's terms as a good analogy, I am going to say this is the equivalent of you going to work every day. In order to get into the office where you work, you have a keycard that must be scanned that allows you to enter. You scan your card, the door recognizes your card and you enter. Lets say we get a hacker or someone who alters the magnetic strip/barcode on your card that the door scanner now does not recognize. You go to work one day, scan your card, and the door does not open and does not let you in. You now need to find another way into the office. The modification to your access card is the equivalent of modifying Testosterone with C17-alpha alkylation. The hormone now gets by into the bloodstream by going through a new pathway, which unfortunately at the same time results in an increase in hepatocyte (liver cell) toxicity, and that is the trade-off we make when we C17-AA a compound.

Make sense? Be careful of what you read on the internet. There are too many forums, websites, and people that will spew out unscientific bullshit, which is often conjecture, anecdote, and/or broscience. It's just a bunch of idiots trying to sound smart when they're really just talking out of their ass. It's guys like me who are actually formally trained and educated in these matters that have developed a sense of smell for this particular bullshit (which laymen have not developed) and call these idiots out.

Please read my article on liver support and C-17 oral anabolic steroids here: http://forums.steroidal.com/educatio....html#post5965, you will find a intense wealth of information there. Let me know if that article/thread answers all of your questions.

Excellent post, I was hoping you'd chime in here. Great!

[Dan C]

I think this whole "taking liver protectants will cancel out the oral AAS" thing is the most illogical and crazy steroid myth/rumor i've ever heard (except for the whole "steroids make your penis small" junk. Definitely worthy of being added to a 'Stupid Steroid Myths' article one day in the future.

I'd also like to present some logic questions that should further reveal the ridiculousness of a myth like this:

Ask yourself the following: In what environment would oral C17-AA anabolic steroids have a higher percentage of passing through the liver into the bloodstream?
A. A hepatotoxic liver that is diminishing in function.
B. A healthy full-functioning liver.

[DanM]

Thank you guys for your input, exactly what I was hoping to get, very much appreciated. Will keep this and what was presented in the articals you referenced in mind and pass the knowledge on if the oppurtunity presents itself, to much bro science floating around these days, can make these matters confusing and even dangerous at times.

[Dan C]

Thank you guys for your input, exactly what I was hoping to get, very much appreciated. Will keep this and what was presented in the articals you referenced in mind and pass the knowledge on if the oppurtunity presents itself, to much bro science floating around these days, can make these matters confusing and even dangerous at times.

Yup, very true indeed. This is why Western society needs to drop the anal-retentive attitude towards anabolic steroids so that science and medicine can properly and rightfully re-establish themselves as the authority on anabolic steroid use. With the current laws and climate driving anabolic steroid use for physique/performance enhancement underground, guess who the "authorities" and "experts" are? EVERYONE! Every meathead and his dog has a "scientific" explanation for why we should use this steroid or that steroid in this or that manner, and they're not being very scientific at all. Making shit up and passing it off as a valid explanation is not science. This creates a very hazardous and dangerous environment for people who are using anabolic steroids, and taking their advice from these idiots on forums all across the internet.