Test P vs Test P/Tren A (life) recovery from 4 week cycle?

[ihategravity]

I have one cycle under my belt that was 6 weeks of test E at 300mg. I loved the cycle and really enjoyed how I felt while on. Since then I have been looking into other compounds to run for my next cycle. No matter what it will be a 4 week cycle of either test P alone or test P/tren A. No other compounds look interesting to me other than tren. However the harshness of it (from what I've read) makes me question why not just stick to test only. Orals also don't interest me as I don't see the point in them (for me).

Stats: 27 / 6' / 260lbs / 20% bf / 12 years lifting

I won't be entering any powerlifting competitions nor do I enjoy bodybuilding. I also don't care about a 6 pack but if I get one along the way it could be fun. The main question that I have is how would recovery be on a test/tren cycle for 4 weeks? I utilize less is more so my goal is to use no AI (have it on hand obv), caber .5 twice a week, cialis 10mg a day while on/bridge/PCT:

Day 1: 100mg Test P / 200mg Tren A (front load)
Day3-30: 30mg Test / 100mg Tren EOD

Should end up with 14 total pins and 490mg total of Test and 1500mg total Tren over the 30 days.

My main concern is health and longevity. I love lifting and plan to do it well into my trt days. My main goals are strength/mobility/building up healthy collagen.

Through my research I found it interesting that test will hurt collagen except in doses around 200-300mg test e. I have found conflicting information around tren and this regard. However, being its a cousin of deca one would think there should be some collagen building properties.

[MickeyKnox]

Your first cycle was a long ester for only 6 wks? And now you want to begin your second cycle, which is an advanced 4wk blast? Where are you getting this information from?

[ihategravity]

Ethenate isn't a long ester, its more of a medium one. Lots of people run short cycles and it worked great for me. No, I'm not beginning my second cycle yet, re-read the post.

[Admin]

I have one cycle under my belt that was 6 weeks of test E at 300mg. I loved the cycle and really enjoyed how I felt while on. Since then I have been looking into other compounds to run for my next cycle. No matter what it will be a 4 week cycle of either test P alone or test P/tren A. No other compounds look interesting to me other than tren. However the harshness of it (from what I've read) makes me question why not just stick to test only. Orals also don't interest me as I don't see the point in them (for me).

Stats: 27 / 6' / 260lbs / 20% bf / 12 years lifting

I won't be entering any powerlifting competitions nor do I enjoy bodybuilding. I also don't care about a 6 pack but if I get one along the way it could be fun. The main question that I have is how would recovery be on a test/tren cycle for 4 weeks? I utilize less is more so my goal is to use no AI (have it on hand obv), caber .5 twice a week, cialis 10mg a day while on/bridge/PCT:

Day 1: 100mg Test P / 200mg Tren A (front load)
Day3-30: 30mg Test / 100mg Tren EOD

Should end up with 14 total pins and 490mg total of Test and 1500mg total Tren over the 30 days.

My main concern is health and longevity. I love lifting and plan to do it well into my trt days. My main goals are strength/mobility/building up healthy collagen.

Through my research I found it interesting that test will hurt collagen except in doses around 200-300mg test e. I have found conflicting information around tren and this regard. However, being its a cousin of deca one would think there should be some collagen building properties.

Whats with the short cycles?

I never got around to trying a proper short cycle, but if thats the route you want to go, then you need to cut beforehand, then rebound/increase calories and start your cycle during this growth window.

I'd rather go 8 weeks with TP 100mg/EOD and Tren Ace 50mg/EOD.

You should ALWAYS be using an AI, read the sticky thread I wrote here.

Recovery is generally better from short cycles, yes.

[MickeyKnox]

Ethenate isn't a long ester, its more of a medium one. Lots of people run short cycles and it worked great for me. No, I'm not beginning my second cycle yet, re-read the post.

Enanthate esters typically begin to spool up around wk 4, or later, in MOST users. That to me suggests a long ester compared to other common short esters like suspension, acetate, and proprionate..ect.

So, if you choose a "long" ester like enanthate for a short (arguably short, in terms of typical cycles) 6 week cycle then your real gains will be made in roughly the last two weeks. In other words, your blood serums levels will be just spooling up or becoming fully saturated a couple weeks before you stop. IMHO, proprionate (or acetate like Admin suggested) would be a better choice of ester for the short cycle you are preparing for.

And finally, re-read MY post. I never suggested you began your cycle as indicative present, I used the conjugated "want to begin" indicating future.

Good luck with your cycle.

[ihategravity]

I like the idea of short cycles because I don't like the idea of long recovery. The only reason tren even interests me is because you don't need an AI with it. If I run my test at 100mg/week I should not need an AI for that (thats like upper natural). At 300mg a week I needed .1mg of dex a week. The whole point of this is risk vs reward so I was trying to get feedback in that regard.

Enanthate esters typically begin to spool up around wk 4, or later, in MOST users.

Not true, it is active from day one. I noticed strength gains during the first week. I don't pay attention to muscle size which is probably where this myth came from. I also don't "want to begin" anything as this is a theoretical posting..

[MickeyKnox]

Youre an idiot.

[Admin]

I like the idea of short cycles because I don't like the idea of long recovery. The only reason tren even interests me is because you don't need an AI with it. If I run my test at 100mg/week I should not need an AI for that (thats like upper natural). At 300mg a week I needed .1mg of dex a week. The whole point of this is risk vs reward so I was trying to get feedback in that regard.


Not true, it is active from day one. I noticed strength gains during the first week. I don't pay attention to muscle size which is probably where this myth came from. I also don't "want to begin" anything as this is a theoretical posting..

Why dont you need an AI with Trenbolone? You should always be using an AI when using exogenous testosterone. An AI will also help to control prolactin levels by controlled estorgen.

Did you read the sticky in this forum about AI's?

I also agree with Micky, running Enanthate for 6 weeks isn't optimal, you should be running it for 10-12 weeks. If you want to go 6 weeks, go with short esters.

[ihategravity]

As far as I know:

trenbolone is a 19-nor steroid and as such belongs to the class of 19-nor steroids (along with nandrolone , AKA deca). This makes it a progestin, and it is unable to aromatize into estrogen, nor does it convert into DHT.

This, to me says that I don't need an AI specifically for tren. Why would I need an AI for test if its not going to be reaching above normal levels? I do know that I will need cabergoline to control the prolactin.

As far as test e for 6 weeks I would 100% run this exact cycle again. I think what happens is people don't front load/have bad diets/don't know how to optimize their own bodies potential(for their goals). The only time test E takes a while to build up is if people don't front load. From day 1 my levels were skyrocketed and by day 7 all of my lifts had increased by at least a rep. The only down side is when you stop you have to wait 3 weeks until PCT can start otherwise your blood levels are too elevated for SERM to be effective. Test P would be better for a 4-6 week cycle but ONLY from the stand point that it leaves your system quicker in the end. If you don't care about that Test E will do the same thing in the same amount of time with less pins and be cheaper.

Youre an idiot.

You got me!

[Admin]

As far as I know:



This, to me says that I don't need an AI specifically for tren. Why would I need an AI for test if its not going to be reaching above normal levels? I do know that I will need cabergoline to control the prolactin.

As far as test e for 6 weeks I would 100% run this exact cycle again. I think what happens is people don't front load/have bad diets/don't know how to optimize their own bodies potential(for their goals). The only time test E takes a while to build up is if people don't front load. From day 1 my levels were skyrocketed and by day 7 all of my lifts had increased by at least a rep. The only down side is when you stop you have to wait 3 weeks until PCT can start otherwise your blood levels are too elevated for SERM to be effective. Test P would be better for a 4-6 week cycle but ONLY from the stand point that it leaves your system quicker in the end. If you don't care about that Test E will do the same thing in the same amount of time with less pins and be cheaper.



You got me!

How do you know its not going to "reach above normal levels"? Have you got blood testing done on the doses of exogenous testosterone you're talking about? How do you also know prolactin climbs, in most cases it doesn't as estrogen was/is controlled and not above normal levels, often with the use of an AI.

30mg/ED of Test is ridiculous, why not run 250mg/wk of Test Enan?

Regarding kicking in, I wrote this - Testosterone Long Esters ?Kick-In? Myth | Steroidal.com

I do believe total testosterone levels climb in a matter of days and these cycle can be run, but gains wont slow at week 6 when on longer esters, but might on shorter esters. You'd be better running your little 6-week cycle for 12 weeks and continuing to gain. Gains will then slow around 12-16 weeks and come off.

[ihategravity]

Admin, I have been reading the articles you have posted. They seem well written and provide a lot of useful information.

Day3-30: 30mg Test / 100mg Tren EOD was what I was talking about in OP. Which would be 120mg week 1 and 90mg week 2 thus a total of 105mg per week on average over the course of the two weeks. This is one of the recommendations per Dan C's articles on another site when he went by Atomini. "Replace natural test levels and let the tren do the work".

Back to the article you linked (we are getting away from my OP but who cares. It may come back around at some point lol)...The only issue I have with that study is that no front load was performed which makes a HUGE difference. Based on how it was performed you would expect not to see anything until those times. However, look at these two graphs comparing front load vs not.

300mg Test E per week no front load:



300mg Test E per week with 1200mg front load:


These graphs show just how much test is in your blood and when. With these kinds of levels from Day 1 you are able to make progress much quicker. I can promise you had the study performed their trials using this method that their findings would be very different. Running test e this way will also slow gains down earlier then running it straight (much like prop). At that point you can either up your test to 500 for another boost and lengthen the cycle, up your calories to keep seeing gains off of the 300mg, or choose to cycle off and go into PCT in 3 weeks.

[Admin]

Admin, I have been reading the articles you have posted. They seem well written and provide a lot of useful information.

Day3-30: 30mg Test / 100mg Tren EOD was what I was talking about in OP. Which would be 120mg week 1 and 90mg week 2 thus a total of 105mg per week on average over the course of the two weeks. This is one of the recommendations per Dan C's articles on another site when he went by Atomini. "Replace natural test levels and let the tren do the work".

Back to the article you linked (we are getting away from my OP but who cares. It may come back around at some point lol)...The only issue I have with that study is that no front load was performed which makes a HUGE difference. Based on how it was performed you would expect not to see anything until those times. However, look at these two graphs comparing front load vs not.

300mg Test E per week no front load:



300mg Test E per week with 1200mg front load:


These graphs show just how much test is in your blood and when. With these kinds of levels from Day 1 you are able to make progress much quicker. I can promise you had the study performed their trials using this method that their findings would be very different. Running test e this way will also slow gains down earlier then running it straight (much like prop). At that point you can either up your test to 500 for another boost and lengthen the cycle, up your calories to keep seeing gains off of the 300mg, or choose to cycle off and go into PCT in 3 weeks.

I've never used Tren Ace alone as the primary anabolic, then used a replacement dosage of Test. I dont oppose that idea by the way, its probably a decent enough one if labido is kept in check.

I'm not an advocate of front loading, I think it caused me acne when I did my first cycle at 19 years old and never did it again.

Why dont you try the cycle you're outlining and report back with your findings, or create a log with your diet and other information to track progress and side effects? Be a great idea.

I honestly think you'd be better increasing your cycle length to 8 weeks, but its your choice.

[ihategravity]

I have a few months before I can try that cycle out. I will be going with short esters this time around as I want my system to clear much faster. The main question I am trying to find out is the long term effects of using tren as safely as possible. I don't think small amounts of test are really going to do a whole lot long term judging by the people who go on trt. Tren however is a complete different beast and I am weighing the pros and cons of even starting that.

[Admin]

I have a few months before I can try that cycle out. I will be going with short esters this time around as I want my system to clear much faster. The main question I am trying to find out is the long term effects of using tren as safely as possible. I don't think small amounts of test are really going to do a whole lot long term judging by the people who go on trt. Tren however is a complete different beast and I am weighing the pros and cons of even starting that.

Yes, Trenbolone is another animal.

Its extreme doses and using it for long peroids that wrecks havoc on the internal organs. I'd say 6-10 weeks is acceptable at moderate dosages, twice per year or perhaps three times.

Without knowing your bloods ON CYCLE you're playing a guessing game. Get blood work done off cycle and on cycle, then go from there. Some tolerate anabolic steroids a lot more than others. I'd stay clear of just about every single oral though, if health is your main objective. But then, cant you do what you want naturally and use diet if you're that concerned about health?

[ihategravity]

I don't think I could accomplish what I wanted to naturally. Gear has always been a question mark in my head and I told myself once I was deadlifting 500+ and benching 300+ I would reward myself with running my first cycle. Even then I hit that goal about a year ago and still continued to question/research. Finally, a friend convinced me to just try a small cycle and see where I am after that. Turns out I loved it, pinning was easy, and I felt great. So now its a quest to figure out whats the safest way to continue this. My one mistake so far has been not been getting bloods done first. I will for sure be getting them done a couple weeks to a month after PCT has ended.

As outlined in the OP my goals are strength/mobility/health. I would compete in push/pull competitions but I am unable to really rotate my left arm (for mixed grip) so my back over compensates and I end up twisting. I sometimes think about strongman but haven't looked much into it. At the end of the day going through what a lot of the big time competitors go through isn't really desirable. Yes I want to be the best me that I can be but the health risks most of these guys take is scary. Heart surgery, kidney failure, liver malfunctioning, etc is just not something I want to compete with. Which brought me to my question in the first place. Is tren really worth it for me?