IGF1 LR3

[Mini-G]

This stuff is amazing. But I'm far too lazy to write all about it and my knowledge is limited. SO.

Dan has done a ridiculous amount of research and has knowledge of it that blows me away.

Could you please help me again in understanding it completely?

Post work out? Pre workout? SubQ? IM? If you do it pre workout subQ, does it grab intestines first? So on so forth.... Could you please do a write up for me.

[Mini-G]

I'll post something I found on another site. Dan you can add your research.

This was written by a guy who has researched this stuff for 13 years and followed the work of Dave Palumbo and seems to be the best information out there on IGF-1 LR3. Leads me to the conclusion that 20mcg post workout bilateral injections would be best on workout days only. Anyway, Read up:

"What do we want? Bigger muscles. More muscle cells that we will later grow with exercise and gear. A pump? Fatloss? Yeah, right. You can get a pump with a good "pump" product for a quarter of the price of IGF-1. Fatloss? Clen /Alb and T3/T4 will give it to you again at a fraction of the price of IGF-1. More muscle cells, you can ONLY get with IGF-1 (and MGF too). Nothing else will give it to you and if you are using IGF-1 for anything else, you are misusing it. More muscle cells is CLEARLY the best use for IGF-1.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us that we should use IGF-1 to make more muscle cells. It's the only thing that can give it to us and more cells is more growth, which is our goal.

What does this tell us?

The localized effects are the best. Long R3 IGF-1 can float around your body and attach to anything that has IGF-1 receptors. The intestines is the place that has the MOST IGF-1 receptors and it also happens to have lots of blood flow. Injecting large amounts of Long R3 ENSURES that you are growing your intestines. Remember, more cells doesn't equal more size right away. Wait a bit, and see them grow.

What does this mean?

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

HOW?

Heavy resistance exercise strongly upregulates the IGF-1 receptors on the stressed muscle. That means that after your workout, the muscles you trained are at their BEST STATE for receiving IGF-1 and growing many new cells. That's when you pin. This upregulation of IGF-1 receptor during exercise is short-lived. The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper, but within 60 minutes of the last set, the receptors are back at baseline. This means, PIN IMMEDIATELY POSTWORKOUT and you will get your new muscle cells. PIN A LESSER AMOUNT and you will get only new MUSCLE cells out of your IGF-1. Pin more and you will grow other things, including stuff you wish you didn't grow.

What else?

All the talk about IGF-1's half-life is UTTER BULLSHIT. It is technicality without any real-world applicability. Yes rhIGF-1 has a "short half-life". But what does it mean? It means that it is either taken up by a cell receptor or bound up by a binding protein in short order. Does it mean that 20 minutes after the IGF-1 is pinned you should pin more because "blood levels are low"? Not by any means. Once it's activated a cell receptor, that's where it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete and which will consume lots of energy. So the half-life of 20 minutes means NOTHING BECAUSE THE EFFECTS STILL LAST 72 HOURS ALL THE SAME.

What about Long R3 IGF-1?

Yes technically it has a longer half-life. Why? Because it either gets rapidly taken up by a cell receptor or... Just floats around. Until it can find a receptor or is destroyed by the immune system or some other metabolizing mechanism. BUT THIS MEANS ***NOTHING***!!! Why does it mean nothing? BECAUSE once it attaches to a cell receptor, it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete. THIS CELLULAR RESPONSE IS ALL THAT INTERESTS US. Not "blood levels", that's utter bullshit. As a matter of fact, the one thing YOU DO NOT WANT IS FOR BLOOD LEVELS OF IGF-1 TO BE ELEVATED. Because that means you are growing everywhere and this means first and foremost your guts. Sure it feels like it's working while you're on. Just you wait 9 months and see that you look like Craig Kovacs. Bravo, you now have the biggest intestines in the world.

Half-life means nothing. Localized vs systemic = bad argument. You want localized effects. Period. You get them by pinning immediately postworkout. Period. End of argument.

OMFG I am so tired of all the misinformation floating around on IGF-1. Look at the length of this post. Did you read all of it? You should, you know."

[Dan C]

Ohh boy. Well, i'll post my own thoughts on it for now. Don't expect any references or anything. Eventually i'll write a formal IGF-1 profile for the site, but for now I will say this...

It is a very potent nutrient shuttling/partitioning hormone, especially when used while on a cycle with AAS as the two will work together synergistically. It's important that IGF-1 be used in conjunction with a diet THAT INCLUDES CARBOHYDRATES, because IGF-1 acts as a very effective glucose disposal agent that drives glucose into muscle cells, which results in the muscles inflating like a balloon, and vascularity will come out quite prominently. The result, of course, is also significant strength gains from muscle glycogen replenishment. I believe that any more than 50mcg per day of IGF-1 is a waste, because as the post that Mini-G quoted above alluded to, once IGF-1 receptors on skeletal muscle have been saturated, any extra IGF-1 will move on to bind to any available receptors in other tissues (organs, intestines, etc.). I've seen logs of people claiming to use 150 - 200mcg of IGF-1 and i'm baffled by that... it's crazy. Doing IGF-1 in a 4 weeks on / 4 weeks off protocol and/or a 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off protocol seems to be the best call, as it allows enough time for receptors to recover in between use (remember that IGF-1 is a protein hormone that binds to extracellular receptors on the surface of cells which do down-regulate, unlike steroid hormone receptors which actually increase in number and proliferation in the presence of steroid hormones). Taking time off like that will also assist in avoiding the "gut growth" from IGF-1, which normally requires long-term periods of time to occur anyhow (I have also read that the gut growth is actually dependent on genetic predisposition but I can't confirm this claim as of yet).

IGF-1 can be administered via subcutaneous injections or intramuscular, but if using IGF-1 LR3, either method will result in a systemic effect. That's right, injecting IGF-1 LR3 will not exhibit much localized site growth, if at all. The nature of LR3 is to work systemically, with a long half-life of 20something hours, I believe. It can be shot pre-workout or post-workout, but if it is to be one post-workout, it should be done 30 minutes to an hour afterwards so that it will not interfere with your body's secretion of MGF (Mechano Growth Factor), which occurs naturally as a response from anaerobic training.

People also need to realize one thing, and this is very, very important:

I already mentioned there is a huge difference between using it with anabolic steroids and on its own without. On its own it is obviously not going to be as effective, and the observable results will not be as rapid, but it is still not too shabby compared to anything you can get over the counter in a supplement store. Regardless of whether or not you are on a cycle when you decide to use IGF-1, the nutrient shuttling properties of IGF-1 are valuable both on and off AAS. It just so happens that with AAS, the AAS opens more 'doors', so to speak, for the nutrients that are shuttled into the muscle to be utilized for muscle growth. With more of those 'doors' closed when you use IGF-1 without AAS, not as much gets utilized, but the nutrients are still shuttled to the muscles and stored there nevertheless. I see both as very viable and valuable options.

Even while cutting without AAS, I see IGF-1 being very valuable for muscle sparing, and allowing the body to shift its metabolism to favoring fat metabolism rather than protein or carbohydrate metabolism.

People also need to understand that IGF-1 does not burn fat at all. Big misconception there among the bodybuilding community regarding that. IGF-1 is Insulin-like Growth Factor 1. As its name implies, it possesses insulin-like activity (i.e. it facilitates the shuttling of nutrients, specifically amino acids and glucose, into the muscle cells where they can then be utilized for the synthesis of new muscle tissue). People do not realize that HGH really doesn't do a whole lot of things on its own except for a few direct fat metabolizing actions and activity with connective tissue repair/growth. As far as muscle growth, HGH itself does not do anything for this. People don't realize that HGH is really a prohormone (or a prodrug, or a 'releasing factor') that stimulates the release of what is REALLY responsible for HGH's muscle growth properties: IGF-1. It is for this very reason that high dosing of HGH is not necessarily going to result in more growth, since growth is limited by the amount of IGF-1 that the liver can produce in response to any given dosage of HGH. Therefore, it becomes much easier to just administer IGF-1 directly!

[Mini-G]

Bravo! I like it. Very informative as usual. I'm excited for the formal article covering these and other peptides!!

[Mini-G]

Here's a question Dan... Alot of people and studies suggest PWO (within the 60 minute window) but suggest IM, localized to muscle trained. Wouldn't it make sense that by shooting it locally after ravaging the muscle in a intense workout which makes the receptors cry for it? By doing this, does ANY more IGF get binded to the receptors in that area? Like if I'm shooting post workout subq... While its in my body wouldn't it grab onto all kinda of receptors in my intestines BEFORE it makes it's way to my shoulders?

[Dan C]

Okay... the general answer is NO, because there is no evidence to suggest that IGF-1 LR3 works locally. The specific answer is, yes, SOME of it will go to the muscle it is injected in first, but it is so minimal I honestly do not feel it would make a difference. The manner by which anything injected into a muscle works is this: you inject whatever it is into the muscle. Okay, fine. But it doesn't just start attaching to receptors in muscle tissue right THERE where it landed! It needs to seep into the tiny capillaries, and then get pumped to the veins and arteries and enter circulation so that it can then find muscle cell receptors to bind to.

Here's a good analogy:

I'm going to paradrop your car (with you inside it) into a populated suburb of a city. Your goal is to drive to a house and park in its driveway (and ONLY in the driveway of houses that contain spaces to take in cars!). Now, the odds of your car landing RIGHT ON A STREET/SIDEROAD/RESIDENTIAL ROAD is slim to none (after all, roads = capillaries, arteries, and veins... and we aspirate so we DONT inject directly into them). So with that being said, your car with you in it, slowly lands onto the football field of a school. You need to then drive the car OFF the field, on to the street, and then drive through the streets to a house and park in its driveway. Now imagine 100 cars being paradropped with this goal, and only certain houses have availability in their driveways, as I said. Some local houses will receive cars first, yes, but if there are open and available driveways in houses that are needing cars in other subdivisions first, they will go there.

[Mini-G]

Ahhhh. Well BA Jesus. See I was all worried that injecting sub q would start flowing the peptide around my body... Attaching to things closest to the injection site first. I wonder how many passes it makes through the blood stream before it all attaches. It's so annoying this drug lol

[Dan C]

You're just overthinking it, which is something people commonly do in the PED world. Stop over thinking things.

All you need to know is that IGF-1 (or ANY hormone, for that matter) will quickly bind to receptors on cells that are a PRIORITY and require it THE MOST first. This means that through training stimuli, the receptors on the skeletal muscle you recently worked will be in a highly excited state and very receptive to IGF-1, so the IGF-1 you inject (whether it is subcutaneously or intramuscularly) will go there first for the most part. If you were to chronically administer IGF-1 into a lazy couch potato who doesn't work out, almost all the IGF-1 would be binding to receptor sites in cells other than skeletal muscle, because that person' skeletal muscle is not in need of IGF-1 due to the fact that the person is not triggering priority for it through a training stimulus. That person would most likely end up with organ and gut growth almost exclusively.

[Mini-G]

You're just overthinking it, which is something people commonly do in the PED world. Stop over thinking things.

All you need to know is that IGF-1 (or ANY hormone, for that matter) will quickly bind to receptors on cells that are a PRIORITY and require it THE MOST first. This means that through training stimuli, the receptors on the skeletal muscle you recently worked will be in a highly excited state and very receptive to IGF-1, so the IGF-1 you inject (whether it is subcutaneously or intramuscularly) will go there first for the most part. If you were to chronically administer IGF-1 into a lazy couch potato who doesn't work out, almost all the IGF-1 would be binding to receptor sites in cells other than skeletal muscle, because that person' skeletal muscle is not in need of IGF-1 due to the fact that the person is not triggering priority for it through a training stimulus. That person would most likely end up with organ and gut growth almost exclusively.

Okay! Subq PWO is just as good as IM PWO bilaterally. Awesome possum

[warmouth]

I need you to log this. I want to try igf des or this. Always was afraid of the risks, but being gh is a lot more, I want to learn all I can from members experience.

[warmouth]

Good stuff. After continually reading, this seems to be the direction I am leaning, or that other one Dan just profiled....cdj w/o DAC <<<<????/ or whatever it is called. The profileon it makes it sound really good too. The only downside to any pep is the multiple pinning a day. I just cant imagine rollingout of bed and pinning myself, then doing 1 or 2 more times throughout the day for months.

[Dan C]

I read something interesting on IGF.. Completely backs what Dan C says. People that say "STICK IT IN THE MUSCLE BECAUSE IT BINDS FASTER" shut up. Bro science hard.

Truth: There are more IGF receptors on and in the intestines than muscle.
Also truth: THE LIVER PRODUCES IGF.

Think about it. If you're taking an exogenous source of IGF1LR3 do you think it'll bind straight to the intestines when that'a where your body naturally produces it? If by taking subq shots of IGF makes you develop the permagut then we would all have permagut NATURALLY. The bodies smarter than our conscious thoughts are it knows where to ALLOW the IGF to bind. It doesn't just jump in our body and bind to whatever it pleases. After training intensely the muscles various receptors are SCREAMING for... Everything. Oxygen, nutrients, hormones, blood, sex, cheeseburgers. You really think the bodies going to open up and allow the receptors on the intestines to grab everything floating around when there's major internal damage that just occurred? Never.

You CAN shoot it IM bilaterally but there's actually no point. The IGF has to reach the blood stream for te body to register its presence then send some sort of signal for the receptors to OPEN WIIDDEEEEEE. Anyway. That's what I read.

That is correct. The claims people have made about "OMG my triceps got significantly larger after pinning them with IGF-1 for several months" are all pretty much 100% unfounded broscience. The fact is that these people are overlooking other factors and are not really approaching this issue logically. It just so happens that their triceps in all likelihood would have become X inches bigger even if they pinned their IGF-1 subcutaneously over those several months, AND the fact that pinning it in the specific muscle is going to give a localized inflammatory response (from the injection itself), and that alone will give a [temporary] increase in size. People just don't understand how certain things really are working in their bodies.

Will some of the IGF-1 pinned locally reach receptors in that muscle first? Okay, this is what I like to call splitting hairs, and the hair-splitting answer is: yes. But is the amount of IGF-1 provided to that specific muscle it is being injected into first going to be significant enough to warrant taking the time to spot-inject that muscle? NO! If someone wants to waste extra needles (because remember, now you have to use TWO needles) and the extra time/frustration/inconvenience of spot-injecting, they can go ahead and do it. But, to me at least, there really is no significant amount of difference enough to justify that extra hassle.

The whole hoopla about IGF-1 giving site growth is all the same hoopla back in the 1960s - 1980s when nobody knew anything about anabolic steroids that went around saying the exact same things about anabolic steroids, claiming that they too gave site-specific growth. Broscience. We now know that isn't the case. At all.

Good stuff. After continually reading, this seems to be the direction I am leaning, or that other one Dan just profiled....cdj w/o DAC <<<<????/ or whatever it is called. The profileon it makes it sound really good too. The only downside to any pep is the multiple pinning a day. I just cant imagine rollingout of bed and pinning myself, then doing 1 or 2 more times throughout the day for months.

IGF-1 LR3 only needs to be administered once daily, as the modification to its protein structure extends its half life in the range of 20 - 30 hours, I believe. Other peptides, such as the GHRH and GHRP type peptides do need multiple times daily administration.

[Bull]

Good info Dan, thanks for that!

[Admin]

Great information. An IGF-1 Profile is on the list, yes. Not too long.

[Phil C]

That is correct. The claims people have made about "OMG my triceps got significantly larger after pinning them with IGF-1 for several months" are all pretty much 100% unfounded broscience. The fact is that these people are overlooking other factors and are not really approaching this issue logically. It just so happens that their triceps in all likelihood would have become X inches bigger even if they pinned their IGF-1 subcutaneously over those several months, AND the fact that pinning it in the specific muscle is going to give a localized inflammatory response (from the injection itself), and that alone will give a [temporary] increase in size. People just don't understand how certain things really are working in their bodies.

Will some of the IGF-1 pinned locally reach receptors in that muscle first? Okay, this is what I like to call splitting hairs, and the hair-splitting answer is: yes. But is the amount of IGF-1 provided to that specific muscle it is being injected into first going to be significant enough to warrant taking the time to spot-inject that muscle? NO! If someone wants to waste extra needles (because remember, now you have to use TWO needles) and the extra time/frustration/inconvenience of spot-injecting, they can go ahead and do it. But, to me at least, there really is no significant amount of difference enough to justify that extra hassle.

The whole hoopla about IGF-1 giving site growth is all the same hoopla back in the 1960s - 1980s when nobody knew anything about anabolic steroids that went around saying the exact same things about anabolic steroids, claiming that they too gave site-specific growth. Broscience. We now know that isn't the case. At all.



IGF-1 LR3 only needs to be administered once daily, as the modification to its protein structure extends its half life in the range of 20 - 30 hours, I believe. Other peptides, such as the GHRH and GHRP type peptides do need multiple times daily administration.

Hey Dan, love this thread btw, probably one of the most informative I've ever read on the topic. I actually just joined today after reading this thread and other posts on here like this one.

Quick question for you. I started a ghrp-6 and cjc no dac cycle recently (100mcg each, 3 times a day...upon waking, post workout and before bed) while also using test e 500mg twice a week. At the same time I bought the ghrp-6 and cjc I picked up a couple of viles of igf-1 lr3. Is there any concern in beginning to use igf-1 lr3 while taking the above? I was thinking to use 20mcg post workout sub q.

I'll be honest, I am totally new a the peptide world and have only ever done your basic test and tren cycles. Any thoughts or recommendations would be much appreciated.